This is a special episode of the Penny Forward podcast prompted by a post to the Penny Forward Facebook group. Kaiti Shelton wondered if we could do an episode on fitness on a budget. We thought that was a great idea, and we decided to collaborate with Greg Linberg of the Eyes Free Sports podcast to pull together a panel of fitness experts and enthusiasts who are all blind to talk about fitness on a budget including exercising at home Vs. at a gym, participating in solo Vs. team sports, and exercising with and without equipment.
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Chris: Sports can be very expensive. How do you afford all this stuff for yourself personally?
Mirana: A lot of us are on social security, and we are on fixed income. It's just budgeting it. It's knowing, "Okay, this is how much Jiu-jitsu is gonna cost me each month," and making sure that I set that aside. And if something is important to you, then you're gonna figure out how to do it.
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Chris: This is the Penny Forward podcast, a show about blind people building bright futures, one penny at a time.
Liz: I'm Liz Botner.
Chris: And I'm Chris Peterson.
Liz: We are blind people, learning what it takes to be successful in our personal, professional, and financial lives.
Chris: This is a special episode of the Penny Forward podcast prompted by a post to the Penny Forward Facebook group. Kaitie Shelton wondered if we could do an episode on fitness on a budget. We thought that was a great idea, and we decided to collaborate with Greg Linberg of the Eyes Free Sports podcast to pull together a panel of fitness experts and enthusiasts who are all blind to talk about fitness on a budget. We recorded this on Clubhouse. And the audio quality may not always be up to our normal standards. But the content is so good that I think you're really going to enjoy it anyway. We talked about all kinds of things, including what fitness actually means, how you can be fit at home, by yourself, with somebody else, at a gym, doing competitive sports, or maybe just doing exercises on your own. It's a great discussion, and I'm really looking forward to you hearing it, but first, I want to tell you about Taylor's accessible branding solutions. Taylor is able to help with anything related to accessible web design, and web hosting. Visit her website at
to learn more about who she is, and what she does, and we'd like to thank her for hosting the website for the Penny Forward podcast as well. Now, let's get started.
Chris: Greg, why don't you introduce yourself, and tell us about Eyes Free Sports?
Greg: Hey there, Chris. Thanks so much for having me, and it's definitely a pleasure to be on Penny Forward and getting to collaborate with you. So yeah, I've been hosting the Eyes Free Sports podcast for coming up on two years, believe it or not. And my main focus is sports and recreation for the blind and visually impaired. So everything from, you know, tandem cycling to rowing to beep baseball, winter sports, and then of course just any kind of fitness. You know, anything you can do from home, to working out, to, you know, just a variety of everything I like to cover.
Chris: Thanks, Greg, and of course, with us is Liz Botner, our cohost and coproducer for the Penny Forward podcast, and Liz also has somewhat of a fitness background. Liz, why don't you tell us about that?
Liz: Hello, Everyone. I am happy to be here. I do have a very diverse, I should say, I guess, fitness background. I am senior goalie of a blind ice hockey team, the Hartford Braillers. I also participate in running, both with a human guide in a tether and with my certified Guiding Eyes running guide dog. I've also tried things such as goal ball, tandem biking, snowboarding, I will pretty much try almost anything. And I also very much enjoy walking. These days, a lot of it is done inside, but I am very active in that, and keeping up my step count. cause it's important. And my watch yells at me if I don't. So, there's that.
Chris: Thanks, Liz. Also with us is Riley Schmits. And I think Riley Schmits has a lot of expertise in fitness and just health and wellness in general. Riley, would you introduce yourself please?
Riley: Yeah. Hi, my name is Riley Schmits, and I'm somebody who has fitness as a large part of my life. I am getting my masters in exercise science, and I'm also going to school to become a chiropractor. Also my hobbies revolve around exercise a lot. I do beep baseball in the summer times, and then I also train Brazilian Jiu-jitsu year round, and just enjoy being outdoors and being active. Going for things like walks. Going kayaking. Just stuff like that. That's really fun to me. I've tried a lot of different things. I've done goal ball, I've done judo, I've wrestled in high school, and I'm just open to trying out all sorts of physical activity. I think it's all fun, and it's fun to try different things.
Chris: Thanks, Riley. Mary Stores is here. Mary is a first time panelist on the Penny Forward podcast. Mary, tell us about yourself.
Mary: I am Mary Stores, and I am getting back into fitness again, after ... I have a up-and-down relationship with fitness. It's very important, but one of the things that I can tell you about for sure is, I went from 70 percent meat and junk food diet to seventy percent vegie diet, and I have even mostly managed to stick to that, even now. And so my weight gain from not exercising hasn't been as bad, because I do exercise some, and I eat really well now. And so I can tell you about that journey, and the budgetary costs and things.
Chris: Thanks, Mary. And Mary has a unique background also, in that she has cerebral palsy and the way she does fitness may be slightly adapted let's say. Last but not least, Mirana Vradenberg, who has been on the podcast before, is back with us to talk about fitness on a budget. Mirana?
Mirana: I am back. Thank you so much, Chris, for having me on again. So I am an athlete. I train Brazilian Jiu-jitsu here, and I also am an avid gym goer, and enjoy just, you know, being outside, hiking, enjoy a lot of walking, just trying to stay active throughout the day, and most days of the week, all days of the week. I also am a certified personal trainer and nutrition specialist, and my background, I didn't start combat sports until after I lost my sight. I lost my sight when I was twenty-five years old. Prior to that, I would play, you know, softball and stuff, and I was terrible at it, so the games like beep ball and those probably are not my forte, but I cheer all those of you on who enjoy them. I am a type one diabetic, so just nutrition and those are hugely important to myself, and it's just something that I really enjoy sharing with others, just trying to help people improve their quality of life and stuff. So, yeah. That's me.
Chris: Thanks, Mirana. So a very broad range of experiences and expertise on the panel today, and I want to start out with Riley at first here. When we talk about wellness, what exactly does that mean for the average person?
Riley: For the average person, I would say wellness means being as healthy as can possibly be, but also doing something that's maintainable for you. So, finding a diet that you really like, not just focusing on something that's gonna limit your calories, or really limit certain foods that you intake. Being healthy is not just about being like physically healthy, but it's also about being emotionally and psychologically healthy as well. So it's finding something that you enjoy doing, and something that's gonna help you prevent yourself from having high risks of disease like heart disease and diabetes down the road, by staying active and staying moving.
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Liz: So, in terms of exercise, people hear that and they think, "Oh my gosh, that's ... I don't want to do that. I want to kind of run away from it and not really have anything to do with it 'cause I don't have time." But really, how much exercise does the average person need? Whether that's a few times a week or what that would look like, to stay healthy?
Riley: So what I would say is, the recommendations that are generally given are at least a hundred fifty minutes of moderate intensity exercise each week. So you could split that up into three sets of 50 minutes for three times a week. My recommendation would be to be getting at least three days of exercise with that, and to be making each session last, I'd say at least a half an hour.
Greg: So I'm curious, are there certain household goods, household items, just things around the house, that, you know, we can use to exercise, or even just, you know, nothing at all, without having to spend any money on anything? Mirana, any thoughts on that?
Mirana: Oh, there's all sorts of ways that we can improvise. I mean the floor. Really. I mean there's so many different floor routines that you can do just with basic push-ups and, and about exercises and stuff. You can get a full floor workout, you know, if you have access to just the right types of exercises. And that's ... Those are so easy to find. You can go on line and look up all sorts of different floor routines and stuff. Yoga, whatever you want to do. There are so many free resources. Like at
you can go on, it will give you different types of exercises and you can read through descriptions. Their descriptions are pretty adequate, especially if you had some sight in the past, or if you have a history of exercise and stuff, you know what things are. But, you know, just getting somebody to show you and walk you through those if you aren't really familiar with what they're talking about is hugely helpful. And you can make weights out of things. You know, if you take empty milk jugs and you fill them with water, you know, you've got a little bit of resistance there and you can do so many different things with just those types of things. I mean you can use PBC pipe, and whatever your mind can come up with. Any way to create resistance. You can use walls to do different types of pushups and stuff. You can use a chair or a bench to do like dips or things like that. You can use them for like step-ups. You can do both resistance training and cardio training without any equipment at all.
Chris: Along those lines, Mary, are there some particular things that have worked for you, without any equipment at all?
Mary: Yes, actually. I ... First I started off with the Eyes Free Fitness done by Mel Scott. All her stuff is now on YouTube and it's free. And she has everything from beginning exercises to advanced. And ways to modify so that if you are just a very beginner, even a novice exerciser, you can start from the beginning, and work your way up. I also discovered that even if I'm in meetings, if I can just stop and get up and move around, or if I'm cooking, if I'm stirring something in a bowl, I can also start to jog in place. And get more exercise that way than just standing still.
Liz: What are some examples of inexpensive pieces of equipment that would be good next steps for someone who's looking to buy something, but is kind of scared of a lot of the price tags of things?
Riley: So, there's a lot of great products out on the market. You could even get some light dumbbell’s at like Target or Walmart, someplace like that. You can get up to like 15 pounds, and they're those little rubber ones that are really inexpensive. A great option would be some sort of TheraBand or resistance band, because those you can adjust the tension on them by adjusting the placement of your hands on the bands as well, so you have multiple different weights within one band there. You can also do movements that aren't necessarily like, reliant on gravity too. Because the resistance is coming from the band, not from gravity pulling down on the weight. So you can pull up on something and get resistance on it. You can pull down on it and get resistance on it.
Greg: And then in terms of working out in a gym, I know someone who's blind or visually impaired might have some hesitation about going to the gym, just wondering how they're gonna interact with the equipment, others in the gym, Mirana, if you want to speak about, how can a blind or visually impaired person get the most out of attending, and going to a gym?
Mirana: Yeah, that's a great question. So, gyms can be a very intimidating place. I mean if you think about it, there's music playing. there are people talking. The equipment is constantly moving. Whenever you go up to a piece of equipment, you don't know, I mean if you can't see, if you have no vision at all, you don't know if that piece of equipment is being utilized. You know, you don't want to accidentally stick your hand in somebody's lap and have somebody feel violated or whatever. So, and also, in terms of trying to get in a particular type of workout. You know, people want to work a certain group, like legs or things like that, and just knowing where equipment is. Because everything's spread out. It really doesn't have any sort of rhyme or reason, and so it can be kind of tricky. And it really depends from gym to gym. In my own experience, I have found that gyms that are owned by a local hospital, or maybe at some sort of a medical clinic, tend to be better staffed, and so whenever you go in, often times they will have somebody that maybe just kind of keeps the bathrooms clean, and makes sure the towels are folded, and make sure that the equipment's being picked up after, 'cause people like to leave equipment all over the place. (Chuckle.) Gym goers are some of the laziest people ever. They will often have the extra staff to, not help you work out, but just help you navigate the floor. cause that can be a really tricky place. A lot of the other gyms, like Twenty-four Hour Fitness, a lot of those that are like chain gyms, often times they're not really gonna have enough staff to be able to accommodate that. So, my idea for that would be to go in and just try to make the best of a workout with as little equipment as you need. Like, so finding a bench, and some dumbbells for instance, if you don't have the equipment at home. You go and you find a bench and some dumbbells, and there are so many different exercises. So many, I mean you can work all parts of your body with just that bench and those dumbbells. Just trying to keep the space that you have to navigate limited. I also am a fan of, some of the gyms will have like aerobic rooms and things like that and they'll have different types of equipment in there. Going in there and just kind of learning your way around, and finding, "Okay, here's," they maybe have some kettle bells and some different types of things, and just, if you can, if it's possible, to try to keep the space that you have to navigate as small as possible. You know, if you're brave enough to go in there and walk around and find different pieces of equipment, hey, best of luck to you. You're a much braver soul than I am, because I haven't quite learned that trick. But hopefully, as technology and stuff comes along, and, you know, they have like different beacons and stuff like that, I know some gyms are actually starting to use those, and hopefully that will help out and stuff. But another thing, on like Facebook and those types of places, they have groups like, finding partners for like running groups. Finding things like that. There's a lot of people out there willing to help and stuff, but you've really got to ... It's a matter of putting yourself out there, and just kind of seeing what is available to you.
Chris: So let's talk real quick before we start to bring in people from the audience that might have questions or comments, about the affordability of sports. Because sports can be very expensive. If you're playing on a team, like a beep ball team, you might have traveling involved in order to be participating in it, and I imagine that the same thing is true with other things like running or Jiu-jitsu, you know, you've got equipment, and travel costs, and maybe transportation costs, and all kinds of other costs rolled into this. I'm gonna throw this out to everybody, and let's just try not to run into each other too hard. How do you afford all this stuff for yourself personally?
Mirana: So I'll start. I mean, obviously, a lot of us are on social security, and we are on fixed income, and for me, it's just budgeting it. It's knowing, "Okay, this is how much Jiu-jitsu is gonna cost me each month," and making sure that I set that aside, and it's paying attention to things like ... going out and getting coffee all the time is expensive. If something is important to you, then you're gonna figure out how to do it.
Chris: Yeah, very true. It's all about priorities. What are some other thoughts about availability of this stuff?
Riley: Another thing that you can do is for beep ball for example, you know, there is opportunities out there like the Challenge Athletes Foundation, and then you can also approach your local Lions Clubs and see if there's any sort of fund raisers or promotions you can do through them to try and raise money and awareness for the sports that you're participating in.
Chris: Yeah, thanks, Riley. Those are good suggestions too. Anything else?
Liz: It might be helpful to kind of figure out how much you think you might want to spend on a sport. A friend of mine mentioned to me about blind hockey, and specifically about being a goalie, which I absolutely fell in love with. He did not tell me that being a goalie is probably THE most expensive player on the team. So that is something that I've had to get used to, and other people's equipment might be a little bit less expensive, and I have to pay more, which part of me's like, "Um, you need me. I'm a goalie. Why is my stuff so expensive?" (Laugh.) But if you're going to play a sport, when you get hooked up with the club, or the team that you're on, that you're gonna be playing on, ask members of that team, or that sports club, or the gym, if you're going to a gym. Because maybe someone either has, or knows of someone who has, donated equipment that you could use to get started. Because you don't necessarily want to buy equipment, you may not want to buy equipment, rightfully so, if you don't really know what you're doing or if you would even like it. So, those are options as well.
Chris: One of the things that I noticed, being on a team, is that when I first started with beep baseball in particular, people gave me stuff that they weren't using anymore. They gave me pads. They gave me blindfolds. They gave me extra balls that I could practice with. And if they didn't give me stuff, people were more than happy to lend me things like bats or other types of equipment so that I could practice. Greg, has that been your experience as well?
Greg: Definitely. Yeah. And I know, like we've talked about, you know, several times here, just the comradery, the community, in terms of athletes, or go getters, shall we say, with disabilities, if you just ask, and sometimes you don't even have to ask. And someone will just offer and say, "Hey, do you want to borrow this? Do you want to have this for now?" There are a lot of supportive people out there, and even in terms of say used equipment. I mean you can find some pretty decent used equipment. Whether it's specifically exercise equipment or something to enable you to play a sport, that's still in pretty decent shape, and ... For example, I use a Schwinn exercise bike that's got to be thirty years old, that my Grandma used back in the day. And I find it to be more accessible than a lot of the more current stuff that has touchscreens and whatnot.
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Chris: I think at this point, I'd like to see if there are any members of the audience that would like to come up and ask any questions of the panel or make any comments themselves.
Mary: Kathryn has had her hand raised the whole time.
Liz: So we have Kathryn, we also have Julie. So welcome to both of you.
Kathryn: I wanted to kind of give my introductions in regards to the sports that I've done, and kind of give a funny story. ‘Cause I actually wore Liz's hockey gear once, and I don't know how she wears that stuff. Anyway, better her than me. (Laugh.)
Liz: For, just, for anyone who does not know, which may be a lot of you, Kathryn and I are sisters. So don't be alarmed. (Laugh.)
Kathryn: Yeah. (Laugh.) So, the sports that I've played, well, I've probably played sports since I was ... what? Six? Ranging from tea ball, from, Liz and I played on a league with many different various people with disabilities. I was also on a bowling league in Delaware which sadly, it folded, I was the Vice President, and then president. I played goal ball for, oh jeas. Maybe three years? I actually scored the winning goal for our team to win bronze in 2010's nationals in Delaware, so hey, go me. (Laugh.) Sadly, unfortunately, there are no opportunities for me to play sports in Delaware, because everything has basically folded. And there is no girls' team for the blind sports organization in Philadelphia. I think the nearest team would be in DC. So, I think the only exercise I get would be going to and from work. So, it is very sad, I know, but at least I get out of the house, and I walk around. So, ...
Chris: Thank you, Kathryn, and again, you know, as we kind of covered earlier, that doesn't mean that you can't be healthy. And, in fact, a lot of my exercise when I lived in smaller towns was I would get off at a bus stop that was just a little bit further away from home than I needed to get off at so that I could walk a little bit of extra longer. I don't think you need to feel guilty or anything like that, but it is sad that that's an opportunity that's not as readily available to some of us as it is to others. And I hope that that, we're able to even that out over time. Julie, welcome.
Julie: Thank you. Some of you probably know me from before. I’m Julie Cline, I go by Julie Rock 40. I live in a kind of a smaller area. A lot of things have changed for me because of complications with Covid, and work schedule, whatever. Anyway, a lot of my question was, do you guys have any resources for people who have like maybe known diagnosed foot issues? I used to do fitness walking, and that's gotten really hard for me over the last year plus. I've been diagnosed with plantar fasciitis by a doctor, and so walking sometimes can be very hard for me. If you guys aren't familiar with that, maybe you are. Do you know of like any resources that might ... make that a little bit easier? (Chuckle.)
Chris: I'm gonna pass that one over to Riley because I think he might have the best chance at being able to help you out.
Riley: Yeah. So, some good sources that you could go to, is there is either chiropractic is really good for that, and then also PT could really help you out with that. So, if you could find a local chiropractor or physical therapist in your area, they would be really good for helping that out. Other things that you can do just personally on the side to kind of help out with that issue are, plantar fasciitis does tend to be worse in the morning and kind of get better in the evening, so plan your exercise and daily activities around that. Maybe plan on taking your walks in the evening as opposed to the morning, so you are able to tolerate a little bit more of that. And then, other things that you can do, if you have like a lacrosse ball or something at home that you can kind of roll on your plantar fascia just to try to like break up the adhesions and kind of stretch that area out on your own, that would be really good for it. And, also, doing, if you're just sitting and watching TV, you can even do like a little massaging to the area, and that can be good for it as well.
Julie: Yeah, I've tried the ball. I have a splint, sometimes if it gets like really bad at night, I can use that. I've tried some arch supports, I've had moderate success with those.
Julie: But it has made things a lot more ... You know, it's like ... I used to be able to exercise walk for long periods of time, and now, it's like to even walk from one room to the bathroom can just be excruciating. (Chuckle.) So, ...
Riley: my recommendation would be to get into one of the providers that I mentioned, and I think they can really help you get started going with that. Otherwise, just kind of doing what you can, as you can. "Don't stop moving" is gonna be probably THE most important advice that I can give you.
Julie: Thank you.
Chris: And Julie, I have had plantar fasciitis before, and it is really painful, and I definitely empathize with that. Something that a doctor recommended for me that helped, you know, honestly, it took a long time for it to get better for me. So, you know, I'm not saying that anything’s a silver bullet here, but I put a bottle of water in the freezer, and let it freeze solid, and then I put that on the bottom of my foot and rolled it around like the lacrosse ball. So you've got like this ice pack made out of the water bottle. Having that like cold ice pack massaging your foot. That did help me. It took a number of months. So, you know, it wasn't easy. And again, I empathize with you. Mirana, I wonder if you have any ideas about Julie's plantar fasciitis.
Mirana: You know, I think everything's been covered. I would just say that, apart from walking, you know, there are so many exercises that can be done on the floor. I know I struggle with orthostatic hypotension, and so a lot of times, standing up and those things, my blood pressure will drop, so there's a lot of times that I do a workout just on the floor. With different ab exercises and stuff, and, and even just, like, you get some dumbbells, and you can do eight sets of eight reps, and if you do it a little bit more rapidly, you do get kind of a cardio workout in there too. So, my suggestion would just be, on the days that you're hurting too bad, on the days that you can't find anything to fix it, just get down on the floor, and just try to move in whatever way that you're able to. You know, like with stability balls, or weights, or bands, or whatever you can find to use that can help you get in like some resistance training and stuff with that, and even with cardio. I mean that's what Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is. I'm telling you. The cardio that you get from rolling around in the floor, (Chuckle.) Is unlike anything else. You know, it's so amazing. So, I know it stinks to not be able to walk and do the things that you enjoy, but I would just start, while you're waiting for that to heal up, while you're waiting to get better, just do whatever you can do to maintain strength and stuff while, you know, and doing that just in different ways.
Chris: Mary or Liz, are there any other people in the audience that have raised their hands and would like to come up and ask a question or make a comment?
Liz: Kelly raised her hand. Did you want to say something, Kelly?
Kelly: I was just gonna speak to the plantar fasciitis. I'm a nurse and I used to work in foot and ancle surgery. And I'm not sure if it was recommended, but the providers that I worked with would always recommend orthotics. You can buy those over the counter fairly cheap. They would recommend Superfeet orthotics. You can get those at sporting good stores, like Dick's Sporting Goods, and things like that, or you could always go and see a podiatrist or a foot and ankle surgeon, and see if your insurance would cover prescription orthotics as well.
Chris: Kelly is also my wife, and she got me a pair of Superfeet. They come in different colors. Blue and green and ... I don't know what else, but she got me a pair when I was having really bad plantar fasciitis, and they helped a lot. So, and they're not real expensive. They're also not real cheap. They're about ... I want to say about fifty bucks, but they worked for me a lot better than, I at one point had spent four hundred dollars on orthotics from the Good Feet store, and I'm never gonna do that again, 'cause they didn’t work, but the Superfeets really helped out a lot. Any other comments or questions from the audience at this point?
Mary: I don't see any more hands raised.
Chris: Thanks, Mary. All right.
Mirana: I just want to remind people that very, very basic fitness equipment that we've used all of our lives, going out and jumping rope. You can buy a jump rope for five bucks. You know, they're super cheap. So, if we're looking at fitness on a budget, just thinking old school, going back to the days of just jump ropes and things that we can do outside, and, you know, whatever. It's all just great exercise. So there's so many different ways. Jumping jacks. Anything. Think back to your old gym class. To P.E. class. And that's not gonna cost you anything.
Liz: Also, another tidbit of knowledge, reach out to organizations such as the United States Association of Blind Athletes. There's another organization called Move United. There's Achilles International, is the adaptive running group that I am a part of. And these organizations are out there, they're out there to help anyone with a disability compete in any kind of sport, be that competitively, or even recreationally, so they will have ideas.
Mary: You could also check with any local universities if you happen to live in a college town. I have a friend who teaches a class on getting people with disabilities to start moving. In physical therapy and other exercises. I have had many offers because I have a connection with her, of people who have just offered to walk with me, or do whatever. And that helps especially at night 'cause a lot of times, if I get off work, at this time of year, at around 7, the sun has set. And I don't want to be a woman alone, outside, on a trail, at night. It just ... There's been so many sexual assaults and things reported. So it does help to have a buddy. And I still have pepper spray and my apple watch and things too, so that also helps, but it also just helps to ... safety in numbers.
Riley: I would also say that for the people that are deciding to join a new gym and are kind of worried about it too, just reach out to the staff. Reach out to any of the personal training staff. I'm sure that they would be willing to spend fifteen, twenty minutes just showing you around the gym, showing you how anything works, I've worked at a few different gyms and I have been more than willing to help anybody else, and so have the people that I've worked with. Learn how to use the equipment and be able to use it safely and properly.
Chris: Greg, your last words?
Greg: Yeah. I think everyone has said it very well, but you know, just to kind of tie it into the whole fitness on a budget thing, I mean I feel like there's a budget, ... you know, there's something for everyone, no matter your budget. There's something you can do, whether it's alone, whether it's with a partner, whether it's traveling to the Paralympic games, or some kind of tournaments or whatnot, there's something out there for everyone. It's just, you know, finding and identifying what's for you.
Chris: Awesome. Well, I want to thank all of the panelists for being here, and before we go, if you are unfamiliar with the Penny Forward podcast, I would really love it if you would check it out, and so would Liz. The website is
and there are episodes going back to the beginning of the year, and also full text transcripts. So if you prefer to read rather than listen, or you know somebody who needs to read rather than listen, this can be accessible to them also. And this was a collaboration with Greg and the Eyes Free Sports podcast, and Greg, why don't you tell us about Eyes Free Sports, and where people can listen?
Greg: Sure. Again, appreciate the opportunity to collaborate with you here, Chris, on Penny Forward. Once again, Eyes Free Sports is on sports and recreation for the blind and visually impaired, covering all types of sports and recreational activities, and if you just go to
you can hear all the episodes there. You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, and use your Amazon device to play the Eyes Free Sports podcast.
Chris: All right. Well thanks to everybody who participated in the panel, thanks to everybody that was in the audience, listening along to this, again, thank you for being here, and have a good weekend.
Liz: Thank you, Everyone.
Chris: If you enjoy the Penny Forward podcast, please rate, review, and share it with your friends. We're supported by your donations. Please help us to continue producing Penny Forward by following the tip jar link in the show notes, or by visiting
Liz: The Penny forward Podcast is produced by Liz Botner and Chris Peterson. Audio editing and postproduction is provided by Byron Lee, and transcription is provided by Anne Verduin. Music was composed and performed by Andre Loui, and web hosting is provided by Taylor's Accessibility Services.
Chris: Penny Forward is a community of blind people building bright futures, one penny at a time. Visit
to learn more about who we are, and what we do. Until next time, for all of us in the Penny Forward community, I'm Chris Peterson.
Liz: And I'm Liz Botner. Thanks for listening, and have a great week.